Hail WOTers, full of grace! Or possibly Fritos, I don’t judge. Whatever you’re full of, welcome back to the Wheel of Time Reread Redux!
Today’s Redux post will cover Chapters 34 and 35 of The Eye of the World, originally reread in this post.
All original posts are listed in The Wheel of Time Reread Index here, and all Redux posts will also be archived there as well. (The Wheel of Time Master Index, as always, is here, which has links to news, reviews, interviews, and all manner of information about the Wheel of Time in general on Tor.com.)
The Wheel of Time Reread is also available as an e-book series! Yay!
All Reread Redux posts will contain spoilers for the entire Wheel of Time series, so if you haven’t read, read at your own risk.
And now, the post!
Chapter 34: The Last Village
Redux Commentary
[Rand] wondered if his whole sense of time was getting skewed. Only three nights since Howal Gode and Four Kings, two since Paitr had surprised them in Market Sheran. Just a bare day since the nameless Darkfriend woman tried to kill them in the stable of The Queen’s Man, but even that seemed a year ago, or a lifetime.
Heh. Jordan may have told this entire part in wonky sequence, but at least he was nice enough to recap it back in order again for us.
This is also a Chapter of Great Infodumping, which is not always the insult it sounds like, particularly in fantasy settings, where the world and the rules nearly always require a lot more explication than stories set in the “real” world (or reasonable facsimiles thereof).
This one’s mostly about the Andoran succession, in which my interest was severely atrophied by Elayne’s endless Slog For The Crown in… COT, or KOD, or whenever that happened. But despite what I said in the original commentary, I think I probably was at least nominally interested in it at first, though I’m pretty sure I didn’t attach that much significance to Bunt’s talk of Tigraine et al until we go to the Waste and Rand learns about his birth parents in, um, TSR.
“The Dragon is one with the land,” Thom said, still juggling unconcernedly, “and the land is one with the Dragon.”
As I originally noted, this is the first of many references in the series to the Fisher King and his analogy to Rand, which, given the legend’s strong connection with Arthuriana, it is only appropriate that we hear about it right when we are also getting inundated with the deeply Arthurian names of the Andoran royal line (Morgase, Gawyn, Galad, Elayne, etc, etc.). And given how the later books, especially TGS, expanded on how Rand’s mental and physical health had a direct effect on the world around him, in the end his association with the Fisher King is probably even stronger than that of his association with Jesus. Though of course the original Fisher King had strong ties with Jesus himself, because the Fisher King is one of those delightfully archetypal figures which slot themselves easily into almost any religious or mythological framework, because what’s more iconic and symbolic than a ruler whose health is tied to the health of the land he rules? That’s why he’s so fun to play with, as Jordan clearly recognized.
Fun if somewhat random fact: the name “the Fisher King” is “Le Roi pêcheur” in French (in which one of the earliest legends concerning him was written, by Chrétien de Troyes). This caught my eye back in the day, because I took French in high school, but I took French at a Catholic high school, which meant that I also learned how to pray in French, probably better than I ever learned to have actual conversations in the language. (Seriously: even all these years later, I can rattle off the major Catholic prayers in French with hardly a stumble, because we started every class with one or the other of them.)
This is interesting for our purposes because the Hail Mary prayer in English has the line “Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death,” which in French is “Sainte Marie, Mère de Dieu, priez pour nous, pauvres pécheurs, maintenant et à l’heure de notre mort.” Emphasis mine, of course.
Our French teacher at the time told us that in Old French (in which de Troyes would have been writing) there was no difference between the word for “fisher” and the word for “sinner,” even though the accents over the first “e” seem to be different now. I have not been able to confirm via casual Googling whether she was right, but the similarity is certainly suggestive, all things considered. Just some fun food for thought.
Something about the two men at the rim of the shadows made Rand uneasy […] Eventually the one who was wrapped in darkness turned away, and the nervous fellow started back into the light. Despite the chill he was mopping his face with the long apron he wore, as if he were drenched in sweat.
Skin prickling, Rand watched the shape moving off in the night. He did not know why, but his uneasiness seemed to follow that one, a vague tingling in the back of his neck and the hair stirring on his arms as if he had suddenly realized something was sneaking up on him. With a quick shake of his head, he rubbed his arms briskly. Getting as foolish as Mat, aren’t you?
Another instance of Rand, like Moiraine, sensing the presence of Shadowspawn that I did not at all pick up on the first time around. It’s interesting that the Fade also freaked out Almen Bunt, but I’m not sure if that’s supposed to indicate that Bunt may have a latent ability to channel, or that Fades are just really, really disturbing to be around, whether you can channel or not.
“And as for the fools who claim Elaida’s really the queen in all but name…” He spat into the night. “That for them. Morgase is no puppet to dance for any Tar Valon witch.”
*wince* No, her stint as puppet will come from other sources…
I’m sort of surprised that Bunt is so anti-Aes Sedai, because I don’t recall that that’s nearly as much of a thing in Andor as it is elsewhere. But then again, supposing all citizens of a nation are monolithic in their political views is a mistake I try not to make if at all possible, even in fiction (unless the author mandates it, of course), so congratulations to Mr. Bunt for providing his part of the bell curve, I guess?
Also, still a great fakeout with the raven.
Chapter 35: Caemlyn
Redux Commentary
A thousand stories had painted cities in his mind, the great cities of kings and queens, of thrones and powers and legends, and Caemlyn fit into those mind-deep pictures as water fits into a jug.
There are, obviously, a lot of iconic moments in WOT that I would love to see realized on film, but I think this one, the first time we see one of the Great Cities of Randland (Shadar Logoth emphatically not counting as far as I am concerned), would be one of the more awesome to see. Especially if the production designers use Sweet’s rendering of the city on the cover of TFOH as inspiration, because that is still to this day my favorite part of any WOT cover Darrell K. Sweet ever did.
It’s awesome not just because of how beautiful it could be to look at, but because Rand and Mat’s arrival in Caemlyn really marks a transition of the story in TEOTW into a wider and richer world, and that is always thrilling for someone looking for that promise of meaty world-building depth. It would be a good moment, is what I’m saying.
It’s sad that an act of simple kindness deserves such note for its unusualness, but Almen Bunt turned out to be a rare kind of dude, helping Rand and Mat out even though he knew there were disturbing and shady people after them. You go, Master Bunt.
Also, it is probably worth noting at this point that in the last post I erroneously identified Hyam Kinch as the farmer from this whole sequence who turns up again later, when in fact it is Almen Bunt who reappears in TOM. It’s even more amusing because I was talking at the same time about how much I can’t remember anymore about who what when where and such. Yeahhhhhh. Thanks to the commenters who set me right.
“Strangers all around, and no way to tell who to trust, if I can trust anybody. Light, the Two Rivers is so far away it might as well be on the other side of the world. We’re alone, and we’ll never get home. We’re going to die, Rand.”
“Not yet, we won’t,” Rand retorted. “Everybody dies. The Wheel turns. I’m not going to curl up and wait for it to happen, though.”
“You sound like Master al’Vere,” Mat grumbled, but his voice had a little spirit in it.
Speaking of Fisher King-like attributes, in retrospect I have to wonder how much Rand’s ta’veren-ness (and Mat’s own, maybe), or perhaps Rand’s general Messiah-ness is slowing the dagger’s corruption of Mat. I mean, Rand’s still pretty chipper at this point (especially compared to later in the series), so maybe his mere presence really is helping.
Or, you know, his presence is helping because he’s a good friend and friendship is a powerful thing in any context. One or the other. Or both.
Rand choosing the red cloth was definitely ta’veren at work, though I suppose it could also be chalked up to Rand’s naivete in failing to work out that (a) the bindings were political in nature and (b) the cheaper “position” is obviously going to be the more unpopular one. But lucky for him, he didn’t have anywhere near the savvy to either know these things or know to find out these things, and so the day was being carefully set up to being on its way to be saved. Or something like that.
And that’s about what I got for this one, O My Peeps. Have a lovely week, and I’ll see you next Tuesday!
Regarding Fisher/sinner – You say pescado, I say pecado (fish/sin, Spanish).
Because I am too lazy to do anything more than check wiktionary, I see that the two come from the Latin piscatus and peccatum. While they are kind of close, I’d be hard pressed to call it much more than a curious happenstance.
In my mind, when Rand first sees Caemlyn, I thought of the scene in Star Wars where Luke sees Mos Eisley for the first time.
(BTW, Obi-Wan Kenobi’s line descrbing Mos Eisley as a “wretched hive of scum and villainy” is a great line.)
Leigh: I agree with your comment about Sweet’s depiction of Caemlyn on TFoH. That is one of the reasons why it is one of my two favorite covers (the other being TEotW).
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewB
The Fisher King legend also fascinates me. I always thought that the fishing was some elaborate metaphor or symbol, maybe somewhat related to St. Peter – who was originally fisher… there was something I don’t quite remember about Jesus telling St. Peter to stop hunting fish, because now he will hunt men, as in gather them in a church…? So maybe the similarity between the words for fisher and sinner is just coincidence and the only connection is metaphorical.
Also I can’t help thinking about kingfisher and whether it’s name is somewhat related to the legend.
Also a totally unrelated note – I wondered about why the wikipedia entry on Fisher King has no mention about The Witcher saga and found out that the last two books have not yet been translated to english? Sheesh! I was about to compare how The Witcher and WOT play with the same arthurian legend in different ways, but don’t want to spoil you…
I still think Rand and Mat not figuring out what the red/white cloth means was a bit hard to believe. If it was ta’veren influence, does it mean ta’veren influence can make you impossibly stupid if situation requires it?
@1 – maybe that is why we can eat fish for Fridays Lent ;) (ha ha ha – I’m totally joking. I also highly doubt it has anything to do with the fishing industry.)
I don’t even like fish, anyway ;)
@3 – I don’t find it impossible to believe at all. The land they come from is so far removed from city/court/political intrigue that I wouldn’t expect them to have any understanding of what the colors may represent.
In many ways they truly are like children alone in the world at this point in the story.
@5 – But to understand it means something, or that it may be a good idea to find out what it means?
It probably bothers me so, because it reminds me of one of my favourite children’s books (a czech one, so no one here ever heard of it): there’s five boys trying to sneak in a very mysterious part of Prague, where all kids seem to be part of some huge gang or something. They figure out that all the local kids wear a yellow-headed pin on their clothes for some reason, so they just immediatelly figure it out and get some pins too to blend in; they fail however when asked by some locals “who’s side you’re on, This one or That one” (there’s a gang-leader election coming up).
I just keep thinking about this whenever I read this chapter, because yeah, if asked directly whose side are they on, Rand and Mat would be clueless – but the meaning of the clothes is something a little kid would notice.
———
Very interesting, and not at ALL random, if true, since that means that the Fisher King could then be translated as the King of Sinners. An appelation of the word that we could have all KINDS of fun with when applied to the reincarnation of Lews Therin Telemon.
I don’t think the ta’verenness factors much into it. The mere presence of a Rand that Mat can trust should be more than enough to fight off the feelings of paranoia the dagger engenders.
And on the Fisher-Sinner connection..
That would be very strange, because of all professions, Jesus likened his followers to fishermen.
And Jesus was also called, first by his opponents, the “friend of sinners,” because some ofhis most prominent followers included prostitutes and tax collectors, and almost none of his followers were among the religious elite of the time.
But, before we get too far down this path, its worth noting that both the Fisher King myth and the language it was first written in are separated by over 1000 years from the latin roots that would have been around in Jesus’ day. To mention nothing of the fact that they were primarily speaking in Aramaic and writing in Greek, not Latin. The Vulgate, the oldest known Latin translation of the bible that we know of, wouldn’t be written for 300 years AFTER that, and Old French is many, many, many iterations down the road from there.
In other words, there was most likely a legend of the Fisher King in celtic myth long before Christianity ever came to the shores of Medieval France or Brittain. Any correlation to Christ was most likely superimposed on TOP these myths, thereby co-opting the original legends. This is a common enough practice by dark age and medieval missionaries, as evidenced by the liturgical calendar, the adoption of saints who never even knew who Christ was, and a million other points of data.
Thanks for the Fisher King link — I keep seeing references to it hereablouts and had no idea what it meant. And now the possible linguistic connection between “fish” and “sin” is making me giggle for several reasons, none of them WoT-related.
On the Fade freaking Bunt out.
“The gaze of the Eyeless causes fear.”
Just checking in to say that I’m following the Redux and really enjoying the commentary by Leigh and others EVEN THOUGH I’m not commenting much myself. There are still nuggets being uncovered (for me, anyway) in almost every post, in spite of the fact that I’ve read/listened to the WoT series multiple times.
For example: following the Fisher King link through several steps, I discover that “Bran” is a Welsh name meaning “Crow” or “Raven!” I’m currently on my second trip through ASOIAF and this is a cute reveal.
BTW I’ve concluded that the SECOND read of any complex work is the best. It is SO MUCH richer than the first!
@6 – understood. They could have picked up that it surely must mean something.
In terms of the moment that the purchase happened though, they were still kind of freaking out about the scale of Caemlyn and its population and Rand was actively worried about someone seeing the herons.
In that context to accept such an easy way to overcome a difficulty is, for me, understandable even though it is obviously a plot device.
I guess it is a bit silly though heh.
Since thiings seem quiet, I’ll toss out a thought I had from today’s post, about “the Dragon being one with the Land” — since LTT was the previous Dragon to Rand, did this happen with hiim, too? I don’t remember anything that says yes or no (though admittedly it’s been awhile since I’ve done a full read-thru). It would seem logical, because otherwise where did the phrase come from in Randland? But if so, what happened to the land after the taint made LTT insane? Maybe that (and his suicide) helped to make the Breaking so catastrophic.
Continuing with that thought, it also explains the “let the Lord of Chaos rule” dictum, because why wouldn’t the Dark One want Dark!Rand to screw up the harvests and eliminate some of the enemy (good side) combatants all by himself through starvation and other nasty side-effects? Give the taint time to do its work and drive him nuts and/or evil, and Team Evil probably accomplishes more than they would if they straight up assassinated Rand.
I still think last chapter’s “time warp” was a cut-and-paste accident. I left it until now because two weeks ago was full of the crap pilot discussion.
@Anthony Pero
The Vulgate was in part a new translation, in part a re-editing of any number of other separate translations collectively known as the Vetus Latina or Old Latin Bible. It was done by one Saint Jerome during the last 30-odd years of his life, from 385-ish to 420 CE.
ht tp://www.vetuslatina.org/
and
ht tp://arts-itsee.bham.ac.uk/itseeweb/vetuslatina/links.htm
are probably the best sources of information on the Vetus Latina texts.
(It’s also worth noting that during the Renaissance and Reformation various scholars, such as Erasmus, re-translated the Bible text from the original language into Classical Latin, more or less; the Classical Latin that was the lingua franca of European scholarship. I have no idea where the manuscripts of those translations are hiding.)
Yes, thank you for the correction. My post was not well written. My point was that I don’t think we have any of those older texts to work with. Latin wasn’t a dead language at the time, so trying to find a linguistic correlation between Jesus being the “friend of sinners”, and calling his followers to be “fishers of men” in Aramaic, written down in Greek, translated to Latin, and Old French 1000 years later having the word for fisher and sinner sound the same is a really tough sell.
The whole Fisher King thing is very mysterious. He first appears in Chretien De Troyes’ Perceval, which is incomplete, and it’s not clear whether later treatments are actually drawing on earlier traditions, or whether they are just trying to make sense of Chretien. Certainly they diverge quite a lot after the point where Chretien leaves off. In Chretien, it seems the king is called a fisher because he is fishing when Perceval first meets him. Why, we cannot say, and later authors may just have been trying to interpret this fact.
Likewise the idea of the unity of the king with his land appears in some versions of the Grail legend, but not all – I think all feature a wounded king, who may or may not be the same as the Fisher King, but only in some is the land wounded with him.
While on the subject of Arthurian things: I recently saw an interesting picture, an reproduction of a mural at Ramsay Garden, Edinburgh. (I can’t find a version of it anywhere on the web, so you’ll have to take my word for it.) It shows Arthur acquiring Excalibur, with the scene depicted as Duddingston Loch, which lies under Arthur’s Seat near Edinburgh. Arthur is being rowed out in a boat by Morgan, and Nimue is rising out of the water to give him the sword: but watching from the bank are not only Merlin, but Arthur’s three wives, who in this version appear to be about the same age, and married to him at the same time. I did wonder if Jordan had seen this picture.
Some light research does indicate the presence of Arthurian traditions where Arthur has three wives. And of course the Fisher King’s illness making the land ill as well was woven directly into the Arthurian tale presented in the movie Excalibur.
Arthur’s having three wives is certainly supported by tradition (though not the version that’s now best known), but I’d previously always supposed they were successive, not simultaneous.
Sorry I’m barely commenting today. I don’t like these chapters particularly much, except for the excellent info dump on Andoran royalty issues which is intensely awesome and far reaching … up to the point the issue is beaten to death in the PLOD.
I too never picked up on the skin prickling thing here either. Very cool.
Finally, given express and implied ties between Jesus and fisherfolk in the church liturgy and in literature (as one who gathered believers to himself out of the sea of humanity), I’m profoundly unsurprised to see them used in French prayers or WoT relative to Rand.
From our “Oh by the way” department: my computer’s four onboard translators render both ‘sinner’ and ‘fisher’ as ‘pecheur’ en Francaise, with the ^ accent mark over the first ‘e’. Seems like it’s prolly a thing. Just sayin…
It’s-the-little-things department…
I certainly didn’t remember Fades interacting verbally with mere mortals by the time we finished the original re-read. Did that only happen in TEotW? Rhetorical question, time will tell.
Like Faculty Guy, I’m enjoying this redux if not commenting much.
Well, we have them talking with Darkfriends later, but I think this is the only time we see them trying to pass amongst the non-clued in populace.
The correct spelling is pêcheur for fisher (derived from Latin piscator), and pécheur for sinner (derived from Latin peccator). The ^ appears in French words where an “s” in the Latin equivalent is missing in French.
re: Rand’s Shadowspawn sense tingling
“The look of the Eyeless is fear,” as Borderlanders say.
I don’t think we can draw any conclusions re: channeling because their built-in Shadowspawn detector wouldn’t be discernible from the regular Myrddraal gaze freakout. Master Blunt get’s the heebie-jeebies, too, but that could just be the usual reation to any Myrddraal watching you…
re: Rand choosing the red ribbon
Clearly he is a master at Daes Dae’mar. /Cairhien
It’s odd, but as I said before I wasn’t as confused as most people by the time skips and nested flashbacks (though I did notice them). So when Rand makes his comment about time seeming skewed, I was rather startled since I hadn’t realized just how mixed up it was. Once I did, though, I laughed at that snarky bit of narrative. Rather unusual for Jordan.
Yeah, so much info dumping in this chapter, but I did think it was not only interesting but done well and naturally. It became clear right away that Bunt was a very garrulous fellow, so adding that to the darkness and disturbing night, and of course he’d want to talk. What is interesting is just how knowledgeable he is. I’m not sure if we’re supposed to think a lot more people in Randland (or at least Andor) are aware of what’s going on in the world than people in medieval Europe were, or if this is unique to Bunt, but either way I like that he knew so much and paid attention to what was going on, even if he had his own views and opinions that colored it, as everyone does.
On a related note, he certainly seemed very aware when it came to being able to read meaning into things…not just his interpretation of Andor’s recent history (which he got everything about Taringail and the Succession Crisis right on the money, save for not knowing what really happened to Luc and Tigraine), but how he saw right through the story the Fade wove for the innkeeper. I laughed out loud at how he kept needling and mocking the guy until finally he caught on. The Fade wasn’t particularly subtle in its probing, and it seems like only Darkfriends or people predisposed to distrust strangers would listen to it. But Bunt overall seems like a perceptive fellow–I suspect we’re meant to think Fades are just that creepy that anyone, especially a Light-following man like Bunt, can notice them and be disturbed.
Side note: when he appeared in TOM, you were puzzled by Bunt calling Aes Sedai “witches”, Leigh, but right here he proved that was always his view of them, as you comment upon now. I think it’s an example not just of how long it had been since you read TEotW and thus forgotten things but also that after spending so long in Andor and seeing the views of people who supported Morgase and/or Elayne, it was easy to get this rosy interpretation of Andorans as completely positive toward and accepting of Aes Sedai. While it’s true that they are more fair and respectful than many others in Randland, even they had issues with the Tower. Bunt covers it pretty well, I think: tradition for tradition’s sake doesn’t always hold water, especially when times are rough and people need a scapegoat.
And the irony is that while Bunt sits there suggesting that it was dealing with the Tower which led to what happened to Tigraine and the Succession Crisis, he’s more right than he knows thanks to Gitara’s actions. Overall, it seems a case of Andorans being open-minded, but even they have limits. And after Morgase was crowned but once again established the Aes Sedai tradition, the bad things happening like Logain, and Elaida’s attitude, it isn’t hard to see how some people could be turned against the Tower. And as I said before, I bet the rise in this attitude is another reason why the Whitecloaks with Bornhald wanted to get to Caemlyn so fast–so they could whip it up and turn the people against Morgase, thus allowing them to take over Andor or at least get a foothold, instead of have the people rally behind her and the Aes Sedai because they got rid of Logain.
I am amused, though (as well we faintly horrified at the irony) at the commentary made on Elaida here. Bunt snorts at the idea of her puppeting Morgase (oh the foreshadowing), yet later it’s Elaida herself who ends up the puppet of Alviarin. And there’s Rand naively thinking “maybe she can get us to Tar Valon if Moiraine doesn’t show up.” Oh she’d get you there, all right, but only for a gentling… Also, strange that Bunt would think “nobody knows more about scheming than Illianers” instead of Cairhienin.
Re: the Fisher King, all I’ll say is that I very much appreciate you highlighting the double meaning in the Old French name for him. As far as I always read, it was a deliberate and rather amusing pun as well as a shout-out to Jesus, but it could be just a commonly held interpretation that yet wasn’t universally held. Our world may not have the contrived coincidences caused by ta’veren, but I think it’s a bit much that the title from Troyes’ story would just so happen to translate to both “King of the Fishes” (itself a very Christ-like title) and “King of the Sinners.”
What always did confuse me was how Thom in the dream could make this reference, when as far as we know all these dreams were Ishamael’s doing and he wouldn’t reveal something benign or helpful like that to Rand. Part of me wonders if this could be the Creator’s doing (at least indirectly, since we get the implication later that he, or the Pattern, is behind Egwene’s Dreams), but I think it could be just as easily the same thing Leigh mentions in the next chapter, Rand and Mat’s own ta’veren natures. Namely, that because Rand needed to know of this aspect of the Dragon, it suddenly showed up in his dream–though I wouldn’t be surprised if this tidbit came about by drawing upon Rand’s past life memories as Lews Therin even this early on.
Oh yes, the dream within a dream bit with the raven was classic, and is still just as startling and disturbing now as it was the first time around.
Caemlyn…while I agree that the art we got to see of it later helped it stick in our minds–and personally I don’t recall any other city described in as much detail except Tar Valon and perhaps Ebou Dar (and that one has other negative associations to make us ignore it)–I think it’s the description here that really makes the city stand out for us. And it makes sense, Jordan was already planning at this point to have a lot of the story revolve around and keep returning to Caemlyn. I don’t know how much he knew at this point, like whether he’d planned out Rahvin taking over, Rand killing him and running the city for a while, and all the rest. But I suspect he at least already intended the whole succession plot with Elayne and the Shadowspawn attack at the end of the series. So since Caemlyn was going to appear so much in the story, the detailed description here really clues us in to that.
I never thought about Rand’s ta’veren nature protecting Mat from the dagger (though I did think his own might have). Interesting possibility, makes sense to me. What I find odd is how much Mat still wants to go home here. I have to wonder when exactly it was that he lost this desire and in fact seemed to stop caring and never want to go back. Was it after the Healing in TDR, or was it before that? In any event, Rand’s ta’veren power certainly did cause him to get the right sword ties, I agree. Although he most certainly is a Queen’s man later on, in more ways than one. ;)
Amusing sidenote: when Rand was being accosted by the hawkers selling Logain souvenirs, and noting if they put all the cloak scraps and sword pieces together there’d be two swords and half a dozen cloaks. That reminded me very much of the saints’ relics from the Middle Ages, where competing monasteries and cathedrals and nunneries had far too many pieces of various bones and body parts for them all to be genuine. Considering the historical parallel for Randland, it’s an apt reference.
And we get to meet Master Gill. It’s too bad he doesn’t get much to do once he joins up with Perrin, I always liked him a very great deal. It helps that his Establishing Character Moment is to take them off to the side and query how they got Thom’s things–while Rand and Mat are the heroes and we don’t want more bad to happen to them (especially not for something they didn’t do, and when Thom was their friend), Gill’s reaction both proves the strength of his friendship and his good heart. And I love he’s the first person to let us know we shouldn’t assume anyone is dead without a body (even though balefire will later make it actually correct to take that at face value). And reveal Thom is more than what he seemed!
@2 AndrewHB: That’s rather hilarious considering Caemlyn being a place of the Light for most of the books (barring when Rahvin was in power).
@2 Tessuna: To be fair, the colors and their meanings seem a bit backward to me. You’d think white would mean supporting the Tower (and therefore Morgase who was allied to it) but instead it meant you were against them. (Why did red mean supporting her? Elayne’s hair? :P ) So I can see why they’d be confused about the colors’ meanings. Of course once the people with the white bands started being mocking and pugnacious because of his red band, Rand at least should have guessed (Mat was too lost in Shadar Logoth taint to notice)…
@8 alreadymad: As I said, I’m pretty sure that connection was actually deliberate in Troyes’ name choice. Like Tessuna mentioned, “I will make you fishers of men…”
@11 Adam Canning: This.
@12 Faculty Guy: Ever read “The Dark is Rising”?
@14 Ellisande: Very good points.
@15 sps49: So…you think Jordan and Harriet and everyone since then has been lying, and refused to admit it or change the text? o_O
@18 AnotherAndrew: Well considering the fact that the final showdown at the Pit of Doom involved Rand (still bonded to his three women) with Moiraine (Morgan), Nynaeve (Nyneve/Nimue/Vivienne), and Thom Merrilin (Merlin), I think there’s a good chance he did.
@23 Ways, @24 anthonypero: Well to be fair, the early books are the only ones where we see the heroes interacting with only the common people consistently. Specifically the ones of the south, who don’t even believe Fades are real; in the Borderlands, where they do know they’re real, the law against having hoods up on cloaks prevents the Fades from interacting with mortals like this, so it’s only when the heroes are in the south, and among commoners, that they can get away with this. And by the time the heroes are traveling in other places, they’re both more well-protected from regular Shadowspawn and able to be tracked in various ways by the Forsaken, so it’s not needed any more.
@25 birgit: Ah yes, thanks, I was racking my brain as to the specific origins (because I took French in college). Still, it must mean something that two words with such different meanings (and not even very close in spelling, in the Latin) ended up being spelled the same aside from the accents in Old French. Could some French monk who was translating from the Latin have decided to make a literary joke? Or did it deliberately to be symbolic?
@26 Randalator: Of course, no reason it can’t be both. Jordan often buried hidden meanings beneath the obvious ones like this, and I can just see him enjoying the fact he could hint at Rand being a channeler yet again, but have nobody pick up on it because of the “look of the Eyeless” thing.
The colors of Andor are red and white. I assumed that the anti-queen faction uses white because that is associated with the Whitecloaks, who are also anti-AS.
Aaah enter Almen Bunt the lore-dump galore farmer! Funny that his exposition on the royal family lore didn’t bother me on previous readings but this time around it really took me out of the story and came across as very fourth-fall break-y. (though pretty funny that Bunts lore-rant prevents poor Mat from getting any sleep! :)
And then again we have Lolai only two chapters later that really goes into full expository world building lore-dump mode, and that never bother me even in the slightest. It just felt very natural that as an “outside” being Lolai would have a more meta-take on the lore and world of WoT.
Oh well a comment two months late but still… felt like venting… ^^